14 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 *********************************************** 9 AMERICAN DAIRY GOAT ASSOCIATION 10 OCTOBER 28, 2003 11 PINDELL/DEITCH/TIMMONS/DURHAM COMPLAINT 12 *********************************************** 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Taken before Anna L. Renken, a Certified 21 Shorthand Reporter in Travis County for the State 22 of Texas, on the 28th day of October, 2003, 23 between the hours of 8:50 p.m. and 9:32 o'clock 24 p.m. at the ADGA ANNUAL MEETING, Airport Marriott 25 Convention Center, Nashville, Tennessee. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 15 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 2 We're convening this special session of the board 3 of directors to handle the case that was filed two 4 years ago, a complaint by three parties against 5 pedigree misrepresentation by Randy Durham. It is 6 a -- 7 MS. CAMPBELL: Point of order. 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes. 9 MS. CAMPBELL: Shall we have roll 10 call? 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes, we 12 should have a roll call. Shirley, can you make a 13 roll call? 14 MS. MCKENZIE: Yes. 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: This is not 16 the order that she had. 17 MS. MCKENZIE: I will. George 18 Altheide. 19 MR. ALTHEIDE: Here. 20 MS. MCKENZIE: Donna Anderson. 21 MS. ANDERSON: Here. 22 MS. MCKENZIE: Allen Bitter. 23 MR. BITTER: Here. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Kristina Bozzo. 25 MS. BOZZO: Here. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 16 1 MS. MCKENZIE: June Bryan. 2 MS. BRYAN: Here. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Jamie Burks. 4 MR. BURKS: Here. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: Linda Campbell. 6 MS. CAMPBELL: Present. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: Phil Cassette. 8 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Here. 9 MS. MCKENZIE: Daniel Considine. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Here. 11 MS. MCKENIZE: Harvey Considine. 12 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: Here. 13 MS. MCKENZIE: Dave Daubert. 14 MR. DAUBERT: Here. 15 MS. MCKENZIE: Patricia Dean. 16 MS. DEAN: Here. 17 MS. MCKENZIE: Noah Goddard. 18 MR. GODDARD: Here. 19 MS. MCKENZIE: Marcia Gustafson. 20 MS. GUSTAFSON: Here. 21 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Hendrickson. 22 MS. HENDRICKSON: Here. 23 MS. MCKENZIE: Bonnie Kempe. 24 MS. KEMPE: Here. 25 MS. MCKENZIE: Annette Maze. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 17 1 MS. MAZE: Here. 2 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Morford. 3 MS. MORFORD: Here. 4 MS. MCKENZIE: Carl Page. 5 MR. PAGE: Here. 6 MS. MCKENZIE: Laurie Petersen. 7 MS. PETERSEN: Here. 8 MS. MCKENZIE: Vivian Proctor. 9 MS. PROCTOR: (Absent.) 10 MS. MCKENZIE: Shari Reyna. 11 MS. REYNA: Here. 12 MS. MCKENZIE: Joan Dean Rowe. 13 DR. JOAN DEAN ROWE: Here. 14 MS. MCKENZIE: Charlotte Sankey. 15 MS. SANKEY: Here. 16 MS. MCKENZIE: Robin Saum. 17 MS. SAUM: Here. 18 MS. MCKENZIE: Karen Senn. 19 MS. SENN: Here. 20 MS. MCKENZIE: Helen Snyder. 21 MS. HELEN SNYDER: Here. 22 MS. MCKENZIE: Pete Snyder. 23 MR. PETE SNYDER: Here. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Chris Strickland. 25 MR. PETE SNYDER: Here. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 18 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Ruth Weaver. 2 MS. WEAVER: Here. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Directors emeriti? 4 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: Lelia Berry. 6 MS. BERRY: Yes. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: Sally Callahan. 8 MS. CALLAHAN: Here. 9 MS. MCKENZIE: Bob Cassette. 10 MR. ROBERT CASSETTE: Here. 11 MS. MCKENZIE: Sheila Nixon. 12 MS. NIXON: (Absent.) 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 14 This microphone may give me trouble. I have to 15 get used to this thing. But as Phil said, those 16 microphones are all on; but you'll see that there 17 are volume controls for each of them or pairs of 18 them, I think. So it could be that there will be 19 certain microphones that we may have to adjust 20 volume on before they all work as well. 21 MS. CAMPBELL: Can you please turn 22 this one down? 23 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That's the 24 one, yes. Right. 25 (Laughter.) ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 19 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 2 This complaint has been a long case, and it was a 3 long case because of some logistics problems; but 4 what you have the material before you should be 5 included in with some other things in the envelope 6 the initial hearing report that was prepared by 7 Shari Reyna after a March of 2002 hearing on the 8 case, and three letters dated 2001 which were the 9 basis of the original complaint by Timmons and 10 Pindell and Deitch; and then two additional papers 11 that you have would be the more recent letter from 12 Carla Timmons which is not dated, but was prepared 13 just recently and the date of the fax refers to 14 today, October 28th of 2003, a little more 15 explanation for Carla who is one of the original 16 complainants, and this which you can't read real 17 well, but hopefully you can see the pertinent 18 information on it. It is an individual lactation 19 report from the doe who the registered mother was 20 Double Dipper, and it is here because it contains 21 a sire listing. This owner uses the services of 22 DHIA list of sires, and the birth time is within a 23 month of the one claimed for Double Dipper. So 24 that's why that material is before you. 25 What we need to do is to give you as a board ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 20 1 enough information to decide what action, if any, 2 should be taken on the case. It was before you 3 last year, and the request was made from the board 4 to the EC to arrange for DNA sampling on the sire, 5 semen from the sire that was listed and on this 6 doe. And as you remember, the instruction was 7 that Randy Durham was to cooperate within a short 8 period of time. He did do that. He provided us 9 with an opportunity to sample the doe in question 10 at her death and -- Pat Morford. 11 MS. MORFORD: Looking at this I 12 was looking at the application for registration. 13 And am I confused? It looks like on this ILR that 14 the dam is Dipper and the doe is Milky Way. Isn't 15 Milky Way the dam to Dipper or supposed to be the 16 dam to Dipper? Is this backwards? 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I just 18 glanced at this and was trying to explain why we 19 gave it to you; but I may not have the exact 20 chronology, the importance of that. But it was 21 presented to me as being relevant as to the case, 22 so we reproduced it for you. But to go back 23 through how we got where we are here, the initial 24 report of the committee was that they were 25 concerned but felt that in order to take action it ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 21 1 would be useful to know if in fact this doe was 2 sired by the buck that she was claimed to be sired 3 by. That is the basis of the charge by the three 4 people who filed the complaint that the doe could 5 not have been by that buck. 6 At any rate, Randy Durham did cooperate. He 7 called me the day the doe died. He was willing to 8 take the doe to the University of Idaho State, I 9 think, but the university that where there was a 10 person known, Joan Bowen, someone that was a 11 personal contact that she trusted to take the 12 sample and read the tattoo. So we're confident 13 that the tattoo that was read matches the papers 14 on Double Dipper. A sample of hair I believe was 15 taken by this veterinarian and in a manner that 16 should be safe to assume that it was a good DNA 17 sample. 18 Based on that and a semen straw that was 19 procured from a third party not involved in the 20 complaint we got a determination from Imgen that 21 Double Dipper could not be sired by Snap Dragon. 22 All right. And that's as much as we could do as 23 an EC. We found that much out. We notified Randy 24 that the doe did not qualify to be from that buck. 25 That was the complaint. It was presented that she ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 22 1 was a well known doe and was a doe that had won in 2 the area. We froze registrations on all progeny 3 of the doe at the time we got that result, and 4 that's the way it stands at this point. You can 5 change that naturally; but at this point they're 6 on hold. You cannot transfer or register any 7 progeny that descend from that doe at any level. 8 Now you have to decide what the appropriate action 9 to take, what the final action will be. Campbell. 10 MS. CAMPBELL: Do we have any 11 information from Mr. Durham or any statements from 12 him? 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: He hasn't 14 sent any material to me. He got both a letter in 15 the spring at the time that the determination was 16 received that the sire did not qualify, and he got 17 the official notice in late August I believe is 18 the time frame for this hearing and informing him 19 that he was welcome to attend. But no, we have 20 received nothing from him. Campbell. 21 MS. CAMPBELL: I was just handed 22 a -- this is allowed. I was handed a note that 23 said that Pam Haney who is in attendance at this 24 hearing can possibly answer any questions that 25 might be asked. Mr. Durham has asked her to ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 23 1 represent him should that be necessary to answer 2 questions. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. I 4 don't know exactly what you have; but an hour or 5 two ago Pam talked to me, and at the time she 6 didn't have a written authorization. Is that what 7 this is? 8 LINDA CAMPBELL: It's a fax. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: A fax with 10 Randy's signature. Okay. Robin Saum. 11 MS. SAUM: What was Mr. Durham's 12 response when you let him know that that buck 13 could not be the sire of that doe? Did he offer 14 another substitute buck, or what was his comment? 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That was 16 done by letter; and he did not respond to me in 17 that letter. I have been told that he did 18 circulate comments on E-List; but he did not 19 address me about that. 20 MS. SAUM: And the letter went 21 certified return receipt and all that? 22 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: The first 23 one didn't; but the one noticing him of this 24 meeting did. 25 MS. SAUM: The one that notified ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 24 1 him that the buck could not be the sire did not go 2 by certified mail? 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I do not 4 believe we did that. I don't remember asking 5 that. 6 MS. SAUM: Okay. 7 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 8 It appears that that is an authorization signed by 9 Randy Durham whose signature I don't recognize; 10 but I guess I'm willing to accept that that is 11 probably his signature. And as long as the rest 12 of the EC agrees with that assessment, then Pam 13 can respond on Randy's behalf here. 14 Did anyone else want to address this? All 15 right. The other materials that exist out there 16 include a full tape of the hearing that was held 17 in 2002. It would be my preference that we don't 18 need to listen to the entire tape. We do have two 19 members of the board here that participated in 20 that hearing panel; and I'm hopeful that Laurie 21 Petersen and Shari Reyna can give us some of your 22 reaction to what you were hearing and what your 23 advice would be on how to proceed. 24 MS. REYNA: I don't believe I'll 25 be giving advice. The tape -- the hearing was ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 25 1 held. Lauri Petersen and Lou Ann Tuttle were on 2 the committee. You have in front of you, what you 3 have in front of you is not a final report. It is 4 what I wrote to Dan Laney immediately and enclosed 5 with the tapes when I sent them from the airport 6 to ADGA, and it was just to make sure that I had 7 written down what had occurred at the hearing. 8 There were some other issues that came up 9 at the hearing, and probably the most important of 10 which is that Cathy Pindell and three witnesses 11 said that she AIed no does for Mister -- for Randy 12 in '97. She did AI several does in '98. And the 13 registration papers were there. All of the 14 registration papers for the does that she made out 15 the papers on except one, two, she had made out, 16 she had signed and the AI slips were signed. 17 There are two does which is the doe in question, 18 Double Dipper and the litter mate sister on which 19 virtually every single entry had been whited out, 20 written over, and also the AI slip had been whited 21 out and written over. 22 Mr. Durham left these with me accidentally; 23 and I will admit that they were accidental; but 24 since I had them I included them with the 25 materials, the tape and the report I sent to ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 26 1 Daniel at the ADGA office. And I requested that 2 he not release these whited-out sheets, because 3 although I had Lelia -- we were at her house at 4 the hearing -- make copies, the copies don't show 5 the whiteout except on the AI slip the date of 6 service date is very clearly altered both in the 7 month and in the year. And he signed this AI 8 slip, not her. And this is the only registration 9 application that he signed. 10 And I'd be happy for you to look at them. 11 They are copies. You cannot tell the whiteout on 12 the registration applications themselves; but the 13 AI slip is so badly done. I asked him. I told 14 him that we were making no allegations. I asked 15 him who might have made the changes. His answer 16 was "Shari, I'm not going to say I did, and I'm 17 not going to say I didn't." And that was all I 18 got. 19 I did ask Dan Laney not to return these, 20 because I felt that they were important for future 21 reference. We didn't have the DNA. We suggested 22 the DNA. When I was at the office in Spindale 23 some time later I asked Dan about it, and he said 24 he had returned them; and I asked him why, and he 25 said because he wanted them. So we don't have ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 27 1 those originals. I do still have the copies that 2 Lelia made while we were there. Laurie was there; 3 and you can ask me any questions, and Laurie 4 could, if she has something to add, that would be 5 great. 6 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes, can 7 you help, Laurie? 8 MS. PETERSEN: No. I mean, she 9 said it pretty good there. The thing that stuck 10 out most in my mind was that we asked if any AIs 11 were done in '97, and Cathy said no. This was 12 supposedly the only doe that he says that they 13 AIed. But the thing that bothered me the most was 14 on that AI slip it was changed in different color 15 ink even from a '98 to a '97 on that AI slip. And 16 he just really didn't have a good reason why it 17 was done. He kept saying "She probably did it"; 18 but he signed it. 19 And I don't know. He gave us all these papers 20 that showed handwriting things; but like the 21 seven, that seven didn't match either one of their 22 handwriting. So I couldn't tell really how to 23 match the handwriting. It just really bothered me 24 that two papers would have so many corrections. 25 And then that year, moving it back, why didn't he ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 28 1 just fill out a new one? And if you had somebody 2 else do it for you, wouldn't you ask them to fill 3 out a new one? That just was the point that 4 really stuck in my brain on that. Other than that 5 she pretty well filled in the comments there. 6 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes, Chris 7 Strickland. 8 MS. STRICKLAND: The DNA has 9 shown, and we all got a copy of that report in our 10 monthly letters -- yes, we did. I'm sure we did. 11 I have got one -- that shows clearly that Snap 12 Dragon is not the sire of the doe, Double Dipper. 13 Double Dipper was DNAed like from deathbed 14 samples, right, and a semen, a straw of semen from 15 the sire was typed; and he is not the sire of that 16 doe. So I think that's one issue. And to that 17 end I would like to move that the registry expunge 18 the record of Double Dipper and all progeny. 19 MS. HENDRICKSON: Second. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. A 21 motion by Strickland and a second by Hendrickson. 22 Do we have any discussion? Cassette. 23 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: 24 Clarification of that motion. When you say 25 "expunge" are we removing these from the registry, ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 29 1 or are we changing these over to the animal being 2 as unknown? So if there is other breedings, are 3 we just taking them out of the registry all 4 together? What is the intent there? If this 5 animal had progeny that was sold to somebody else 6 and that animal is now owned by somebody else, are 7 you expunging that record? I guess I'm concerned 8 with that point. Are you changing Double Dipper 9 and anything that Double Dipper shows on as being 10 unknown? 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Strickland. 12 MS. STRICKLAND: My intent is that 13 she not be registered as the Alpine she was 14 registered as. So that would make her 50 percent 15 Alpine based on her dam, and that the other 16 animals that followed from her would be changed to 17 represent that standing so as not to penalize 18 people that had progeny that were not involved in 19 the action of the misrepresentation. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That is a 21 little more specific than the original motion. Is 22 that acceptable to the second? 23 MS. HENDRICKSON: Acceptable, yes. 24 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: So the 25 motion now is that the animal in question be ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 30 1 reentered in the herd book as a half Alpine with 2 an unknown sire and that all progeny from her 3 would be reregistered with appropriate status. Is 4 that right? 5 MS. STRICKLAND: "Nods 6 affirmatively.) 7 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Saum. 8 MS. SAUM: Do we know the progeny 9 of that doe that are out there? Do we have 10 anything in the registry right now? 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes, we do. 12 And we got that information in May. Can you give 13 us the report on that, Jim or Shirley? Linda. 14 MS. CAMPBELL: May I yield the 15 floor to Pamela Haney? 16 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Well, first 17 we need an answer to this, and then we can do 18 that. 19 MS. CAMPBELL: I thought she had 20 the answer. 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We have a 22 list here of all descendents of this doe that have 23 been registered. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Eight. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Eight ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 31 1 animals that have been registered as of the time 2 that we stopped activity. 3 MS. SAUM: My only concern is kind 4 of I think on Phil's line. Did somebody purchase 5 these animals as a purebred Alpine or American 6 Alpine and end up with animals that are now going 7 to end up in the recorded grade registry? I mean, 8 are we going to be penalizing somebody we should 9 not? That's my only concern. So who owns those 10 animals? Are they people involved in this, or are 11 they other people? 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Pamela, can 13 you help on that? 14 MS. HANEY: All the progeny have 15 been destroyed with the exception of one 16 granddaughter who is owned by my daughter. She is 17 under my ADGA name, or you know, ID number, 18 because she's owned by my daughter, my 15 year old 19 daughter as her first Alpine. 20 MS. SAUM: How old is she? 21 MS. HANEY: The doe or my 22 daughter? 23 MS. SAUM: The doe. 24 MS. HANEY: She is a first 25 freshener this year. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 32 1 MS. SAUM: She is a yearling? 2 MS. HANEY: Excuse me. She's a 3 two-year old second freshener, pardon me, 4 granddaughter. 5 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. Now 6 the discussion here has been regarding the 7 implication of change in registry status. Does 8 someone want to continue with that discussion? 9 Are you okay with that? Nixon. 10 MS. NIXON: I'm very uncomfortable 11 about being concerned about who owns these animals 12 that are of unknown ancestry. We are talking 13 about the integrity of the registry. We do not 14 know who these animals are. We have really no way 15 of finding out who they are; and in my opinion 16 they should not be in the registry in any way 17 except as an unknown. 18 MS. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Berry. 19 MS. BERRY: In thinking of two 20 prior situations that are similar to this where we 21 expunged animals on the basis of this type of 22 misrepresentation of pedigree, we took the entire 23 animal out of the registry and their progeny. And 24 so Sheila is right. I could tell you the cases if 25 you wanted; but that's probably not necessary. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 33 1 But the case in Texas where we removed a whole 2 family's animals and a case in northern California 3 of some Toggenburgs that we removed all the 4 animals from the registry because they were 5 unknown. 6 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Altheide. 7 MR. ALTHEIDE: Yes. My question 8 would be that based on Shari's initial report 9 there seems to be question as to the dam of Double 10 Dipper as well; and that isn't addressed in Chris' 11 motion, because she says Double Dipper becomes a 12 half Alpine based on the registry of the dam. 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That is the 14 motion before you now though. We either like that 15 motion and we accept it, or we defeat it and we 16 hear another one. But it's an appropriate motion. 17 We need to decide how to handle the animal's 18 registry status. Anymore discussion on the 19 motion? Yes, Hendrickson. 20 MS. HENDRICKSON: I withdraw my 21 second to the motion made by Chris. Is that in 22 order? 23 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I think we 24 can do that. It's unusual for it to be this late 25 in the motion or discussion. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 34 1 LINDA CAMPBELL: Point of order. 2 After discussion on the motion you don't withdraw 3 the second. You can defeat the motion. After 4 discussion you don't withdraw the second. 5 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: It does 6 make more sense to do it that way. Strickland. 7 MS. STRICKLAND: I think George 8 has a valid point, because Milky Way was gone from 9 the herd before the DNA was done, so there was no 10 way to parentally verify Double Dipper. All we 11 know from the DNA is that she was not sired by 12 Snap Dragon. We really have no way of knowing who 13 her dam is. 14 So I would like to withdraw my motion or else 15 go back to my original motion to expunge the 16 records. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I think you 18 can withdraw the motion. That could be done. We 19 don't have a motion on the floor. We do need to 20 address what happens to the registry status. 21 According to Pamela there is one animal or 22 possibly more that might be coming up yet. Does 23 anyone have an alternate motion? Yes, Strickland. 24 MS. STRICKLAND: So then now my 25 motion would be that we expunge the record of ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 35 1 Double Dipper and all progeny. Okay. That is the 2 motion that you have. 3 MR. ALTHEIDE: Second. 4 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Second by 5 Altheide. That is before you then to remove these 6 animals from the registry totally. Any discussion 7 of that motion? All those in favor will say 8 "aye." 9 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 11 "no." (Zero "no" votes.) Abstentions? (Zero 12 abstentions.) All right. We have handled that. 13 Do you as a board feel there is some other 14 action that you would like to take on this case as 15 well? Rowe. 16 DR. DEAN ROWE: This is just a 17 point of clarification: We've expunged the record 18 for the animal in question and its progeny. For 19 the living supposed descendants of that animal 20 then what will happen or what advice do we have 21 for the owner of that animal in terms of 22 reregistering or reapplying relative to 23 representing the animal with that now expunged 24 record as an unknown portion of the pedigree? 25 What is the process for that animal's owner? ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 36 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: As I would 2 see it it is to reregister or rerecord the animal 3 now with unknown parentage. That's all. That's 4 the only option that is left. Pat Hendrickson. 5 MS. HENDRICKSON: It would appear 6 to me that if this granddaughter was sired by a 7 registered buck, she is eligible for 50 percent on 8 the sire. The dam side is unknown. So that would 9 be the logical thing for the new owner to do would 10 be if she was sired by a registered buck, the 11 daughter could be recorded at 50 percent with the 12 sire known and the dam unknown, and that would be 13 the only option at this time. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Right. 15 You're correct. There really isn't a need to 16 reregister Double Dipper. It could be done; but 17 as far as the percentage of Alpine blood she could 18 either be listed as unknown parentage or she could 19 not be listed at all. In either case the program 20 to grade up is still available, you know, to that 21 owner. And by the time you're a granddaughter if 22 the sire is known, you are already three quarters. 23 Yes. Daubert. 24 MR. DAUBERT: Based on that motion 25 I would assume that no further action is needed on ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 37 1 your hold on his registrations on that particular 2 line. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Right. 4 Basically the board has sustained our temporary 5 action on that and gone further, but they are 6 plainly spelled out. The issue that I think you 7 need to resolve as a board is is that enough? Is 8 that all the action you want, or do you think that 9 there is evidence here of enough fraud that you 10 feel that some other sanction on his membership is 11 in order? Reyna. 12 MS. REYNA: I would just like to 13 remind the board, and I'm not making a 14 recommendation; but I am reminding the board that 15 the complaint brought against Mr. Durham was for 16 representation of pedigree. And we have -- there 17 really are two issues before the board. One was 18 what to do, you know, about this animal. And 19 that's really clear. 20 But the question of misrepresentation is not 21 as clear; and I think we need to either clear it 22 or we need to deal with it, one or the other. I 23 think that we have that responsibility to take the 24 action. I don't think it's my responsibility as 25 the chair of the hearing. I did my job. I think ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 38 1 it's time for you to do yours. 2 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: The page in 3 your Guidebook for 2003 that Shari is alluding to 4 is two; but it would be in section seven at the 5 bottom of the page just before Section 8. And 6 those are the suggested possible actions; but they 7 are not the only possible actions that can be 8 taken if it's determined that there is willful 9 misrepresentation. Suspend the membership for a 10 definite period of time, or place him or her on 11 probation until he or she makes restitution, or 12 expel him from membership totally, those are 13 options that you have if you feel they are 14 appropriate. Yes, Bryan. 15 MS. BRYAN: In the original 16 complaint it was alluded that there were several 17 animals that were misrepresented. I understand 18 that the hearing committee found and we actually 19 took action on one animal. Was there evidence 20 that there were other animals brought out that had 21 been involved? 22 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Anyone? 23 Yes, Reyna. 24 MS. REYNA: There were other 25 animals mentioned. The problem was that all the ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 39 1 other animals had been sent off to dairies, or 2 that's what we were told, without papers. And so 3 that dam, so this was the only animal that we had 4 to work with. 5 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Harvey 6 Considine. 7 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: It would 8 seem to me that we have an animal over here that 9 is sort of in limbo. Certainly there is a 10 monetary loss there. Right? And as a result it 11 seems to me that the wording of what you just read 12 was "make retribution." In other words, until the 13 gentleman, Mr. Durham, pays whatever monetary 14 claim for loss of registration and so forth -- do 15 you understand what I mean -- in this doe, that he 16 be denied services of the registry. I would so 17 move that. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. This 19 is a motion then to invoke the section that calls 20 for restitution; and the motion is to withhold 21 services until restitution is made. Do we have a 22 second on that? 23 MS. MAZE: Second. 24 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Second from 25 Maze. Rowe. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 40 1 DR. DEAN ROWE: Before we move 2 forward on the concept of misrepresentation or 3 restitution or whatever, I think it would be 4 appropriate at this time to hear what the 5 representative has to say about the claims that 6 are being made against Mr. Durham. 7 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Sure. 8 DR. JOAN DEAN ROWE: Because I'm 9 not really sure, you know, how to fully assess 10 this. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. This 12 is Pamela Haney. 13 MS. HANEY: It was stated that 14 another doe, that the kids of Milky Way had died 15 and that this doe was registered as Double Dipper. 16 She was identified as Double Dipper. You know, 17 they saw Double Dipper in the fare. They 18 identified her as Tiger Lilly, who she really is. 19 That's what brought forth the claim. Mr. Durham 20 proved that Tiger Lilly still lived and had her 21 own set of tattoos, her own registration papers 22 that were not in his possession. They were in her 23 previous owner's possession. Ms. Jenae Peterson 24 testified to that at the hearing. So the two 25 does, the does were totally separate does. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 41 1 MS. DANIEL CONSIDINE: This really 2 isn't answering, Pamela, where we are right now. 3 I guess I have to tell you that we're past looking 4 at whether or not we believe this doe was falsely 5 registered. This board believes this doe was 6 falsely registered. We've taken action on that. 7 That's a done deal. The issue here now is is 8 there a reasonable dollar value that you feel you 9 should be compensated because you now have an 10 animal that you were able to record as a Recorded 11 Alpine rather than American Alpine? 12 MS. HANEY: As far as I'm 13 concerned, full restitution has been made. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: So there is 15 no restitution needed on your behalf? 16 MS. HANEY: No. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 18 Reyna. 19 MS. REYNA: I do need to point out 20 that we have dealt with Dipper and her progeny; 21 but I have the papers of the litter mate sister, 22 so there is a litter mate sister that also if she 23 -- she is registered as a litter mate sister with 24 the same sire and dam, and I think we probably 25 have to deal with that. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 42 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. Do 2 you see the point that Shari is making here? We 3 naturally did not DNA sample this animal. I do 4 not have the information. 5 MS. REYNA: I do have both 6 registrations. 7 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That's 8 good. But I don't know whether she has any 9 progeny in the registry or not. I didn't ask for 10 that. Harvey Considine. 11 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: Since 12 restitution has been made, I withdraw my motion. 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Done. But 14 back on the discussion Shari already started, do 15 you feel action may be needed on the litter mate, 16 if someone wants to take that up? Rowe. 17 DR. JOAN DEAN ROWE: Ms. Haney has 18 informed me that the litter mate was sold to a 19 dairy without papers. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: And I 21 assume we could verify that with the staff and 22 later report to you if we find that there is no 23 activity on those descendants of that doe. So we 24 could verify that report to the board in a mail 25 out. All right. Altheide. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 43 1 MR. ALTHEIDE: Well, in view of 2 the comments that Shari made about what appeared 3 to her to be deliberate alterations of the AI 4 service memo, I would move that we suspend 5 Mr. Durham's membership privileges for one year. 6 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 7 Motion by Altheide. Is there a second to that 8 motion? 9 MR. PAGE: Second. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Second from 11 Page. The motion is before you. Discussion on 12 suspending membership for one year. Yes, 13 Campbell. 14 MS. CAMPBELL: I guess I want to 15 raise the question just so that I understand. 16 This service date we're assuming was changed by 17 Mr. Durham. But do we really know that's who made 18 the change? 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Does anyone 20 want to take up discussion? Hendrickson. 21 MS. HENDRICKSON: I've, you know, 22 living in the area I hear a lot of talk from both 23 sides of this thing here. To me there are way too 24 many unanswered questions about who wrote what on 25 what application, who signed what, when it was ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 44 1 done, if anybody witnessed an AI, the date it was 2 done, and whether these numbers were written 3 purposely or it was an error on the applications. 4 And it's a feud in the neighborhood. They are 5 all trying too smear aspersions against each 6 other. And I don't think that we have gotten the 7 whole story on it yet. I don't feel that I have 8 total proof in my mind that this man did anything 9 to go ahead and defraud anybody. You know, I feel 10 real uncomfortable suspending somebody's 11 membership for a year. 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Does anyone 13 else want to speak on that motion? All right. As 14 far as board action, are we ready for that? All 15 in favor say "aye." 16 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 18 "no." 19 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I think we 21 need a roll call. Can you call it, Shirley? 22 MS. MCKENZIE: George Altheide. 23 MR. ALTHEIDE: Yes. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Donna Anderson. 25 MS. ANDERSON: Yes. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 45 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Allen Bitter. 2 MR. BITTER: No. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Kristina Bozza. 4 MS. BOZZO: Yes. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: June Bryan. 6 MS. BRYAN: Yes. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: Jamie Burks. 8 MR. BURKS: Yes. 9 MS. MCKENZIE: Linda Campbell. 10 MS. CAMPBELL: No. 11 MS. MCKENZIE: Phil Cassette. 12 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: No. 13 MS. MCKENZIE: Daniel Considine. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes. 15 MS. MCKENZIE: Harvey Considine. 16 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: No. 17 MS. MCKENZIE: Dave Daubert. 18 MR. DAUBERT: Yes. 19 MS. MCKENZIE: Patricia Dean. 20 MS. DEAN: Yes. 21 MS. MCKENZIE: Noah Goddard. 22 MR. GODDARD: Yes. 23 MS. MCKENZIE: Marcia Gustafson. 24 MS. GUSTAFSON: No. 25 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Hendrickson. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 46 1 MS. HENDRICKSON: No. 2 MS. MCKENZIE: Bonnie Kempe? 3 MS. KEMPE: Yes. 4 MS. MCKENZIE: Annette Maze? 5 MS. MAZE: Yes. 6 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Morford? 7 MS. MORFORD: No. 8 MS. MCKENZIE: Carl Page? 9 MR. PAGE: Yes. 10 MS. MCKENZIE: Laurie Petersen. 11 MS. PETERSEN: No. 12 MS. MCKENZIE: Shari Reyna. 13 MS. REYNA: Yes. 14 MS. MCKENZIE: Joan Dean Rowe? 15 DR. DEAN ROWE: No. 16 MS. MCKENZIE: Charlotte Sankey. 17 MS. SANKEY: Yes. 18 MS. MCKENZIE: Robin Saum. 19 MS. SAUM: Yes. 20 MS. MCKENZIE: Karen Senn. 21 MS. SENN: No. 22 MS. MCKENZIE: Helen Snyder. 23 MS. HELEN SNYDER: Yes. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Pete Snyder? 25 MR. PETE SNYDER: Yes. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 47 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Chris Strickland. 2 MS. STRICKLAND: No. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Ruth Weaver. 4 MS. WEAVER: Yes. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: Eleven nos. 6 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Eleven nos. 7 We have 29 directors here. Is that right? 8 MS. MCKENZIE: Yes. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: So 18 yes. 10 The motion is carried. This action is taken. Is 11 there anything else that you would like to do with 12 this case? (Correction: The vote 18 yes, 11 no is less than the 2/3 needed to take this action. The result is that no membership sanctions will be taken on Randy Durham or Destitute Dairies memberships.) 13 Okay. Mr. Durham will be given official 14 notice of this action; and the office will not 15 accept work from him for a one-year period. And 16 that is the only business that is scheduled for 17 this evening, so we are recessed until -- okay. 18 Strickland. 19 MS. STRICKLAND: How does this 20 affect people that are in the midst of business 21 with him in terms of animals that they would need 22 service memos on and such to continue the 23 registration of other animals? Does that work 24 still go on? 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I'm not ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 48 1 sure how that has to be handled. I guess we need 2 to think that through. Does someone have a 3 comment on this question? Reyna. 4 MS. REYNA: It's in here 5 (indicating). Give me just a second here. 6 Suspend a membership: "No person shall be allowed 7 to register." But then it says that "Signatures 8 will be honored however on transfer reports and 9 bills of sale for the purpose of allowing such 10 disciplined person to transfer goats recorded in 11 his or her ownership at the time of disciplinary 12 action." It seems like that ought to take care of 13 it. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: It seems 15 like that is the right section, Shari. I think 16 you've got it. Berry. 17 MS. BERRY: Yes. That's what we 18 did in the case in Texas that most, some of you 19 remember, that we allowed the family to transfer 20 those animals out. 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 22 Unless there is no more business on this case, 23 then we are recessed and will convene here in the 24 morning for the normal agenda that we are 25 presented with. Thank you. (Adjourned 9:32 p.m.) ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 49 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2 CERTIFICATION OF THE 3 PINDELL/DEITCH/TIMMONS/DURHAM 4 COMPLAINT PROCEEDINGS 5 AMERICAN DAIRY GOAT ASSOCIATION 6 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 7 8 I, ANNA LOUISE RENKEN, Certified 9 Shorthand Reporter, State of Texas, hereby certify 10 that a verbatim record was made of said 11 proceedings and that the original transcript has 12 been delivered to Shirley McKenzie, Association 13 Manager, American Dairy Goat Association, and that 14 the cost for this transcript is __________. 15 CHARGED TO: ADGA. 16 Given under my hand and seal of office 17 on this the day of 2003. 18 ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 19 610 West Lynn Suite 200 20 Austin, Texas 78703 (512) 323-0626 21 22 ANNA L. RENKEN, CSR 23 Certification No. 2343 Certificate Expires 12/31/04 24 Firm Certificate of Registration 299 Certificate Expires 12/31/04 25 #5175AR ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626